You've Been a Bad Agent

Wilhelm (00:00.59)
Go, we're back. This the Bad Agent podcast.

Matt (00:01.187)
Yo

Matt (00:05.623)
It's been eight is.

Wilhelm (00:14.476)
Remember prompt ops? This is intro is from spring twenty twenty five.

Matt (00:20.015)
I was actually thinking that I was like, how good does AI have to get before we actually have to update the intro?

Wilhelm (00:25.682)
Mm, yeah. Everything is definitely changing. We're in the singularity. Are we in the singularity, Matt? Are we in the takeoff?

Matt (00:36.803)
Fast takeoff. I don't know. I don't know.

Wilhelm (00:40.678)
I okay. I I so obviously we haven't recorded in a while. It's been a summer. We've taken our summer break, which is which feels very appropriate for two Euro bros the summer off or whatever. But I keep saying to everyone in my life, this is the last summer. From here on, it's just gonna be crazy. It's gonna get crazier every week, every month.

Matt (01:21.515)
What what are you what are you saying dude?

Wilhelm (01:25.422)
Alright, I'll give you one example. There was a chart on Twitter yesterday that was like it used to be that there were three months between model releases from OpenAI AI and Anthropic. Now it's 11 days. So every 11 days there's a new model, right? You you plot that chart out, it'll be every day soon. Then will be it no two requests will hit the same model. Every request will hit the newer model.

Matt (01:28.599)
Okay.

Matt (01:38.628)
Yeah.

Matt (01:55.471)
No, but they're gonna no, okay, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You theoretically could have two people updating a website every second, but you don't because it makes you feel C sick because the website keeps changing. How no one's gonna ex Okay, I can see this for chat, right? Them doing like continual upgrades. But for like API access, they can't do that. Like they can't continually upgrade shit because then everyone's stuff will just continually break in different

Wilhelm (02:26.85)
Sounds like a model skill issue. Sounds like your model's not aligned enough, bro. Align your model.

Matt (02:30.967)
my Jesus. I also I also think okay, this is my other take that that I and we're seeing at the moment, so I don't think it's that necessarily that even that spicy, but the model labs are not releasing their best models to the public anymore. And this like started with Mythos from Anthropic, but now we're seeing this with like, is it six point one Astra is not getting released? At least like not any time, not it wasn't released with the rest of

Wilhelm (02:50.328)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (02:57.518)
Mm.

Matt (03:00.867)
with six point one Sol from OpenAI. And that was supposedly due to like deception or whatever in the model. But yeah. I don't know. Like

Wilhelm (03:10.907)
right. I'm very confused about this to be honest. I feel like they're yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, continue.

Matt (03:16.655)
Well, I feel like the as the models get better, like AI safety becomes more of an issue for the labs releasing something that is gonna be deceitful, can have like larger and larger consequences. I so so then it it basically costs more money to secure better models. And so the same way that like if you make some software that you don't know is that you don't know how good it is, you're not gonna like release it, but you know you're gonna have like infinite demand. Like for instance, like

Wilhelm (03:45.261)
Right.

Matt (03:46.455)
Like a Carflow releases a new product. You see, a lot of the new products are released under private beta. They're released basically with like customer consultation. Not everyone can use it because they want to see like the weird and wonderful ways that it breaks. at like a scale that is very hard to replicate. So I think like that process is gonna happen more and more and more. and so there is a limit to like how fast you can continually release models.

Wilhelm (04:39.925)
interesting. y w one of the lines I liked recently was from I forget I forget his name. It was I think on one of the Dwarcash things where there were like a bunch of different researchers talking about the challenges with recurring recurrent self improvement and was it was it John Chulman? R recursive self improvement. and Yeah.

Matt (05:01.337)
Cursive.

Matt (05:04.844)
Yeah, John Sherman from Thinking Machines. I remember that one. That one was so good actually. That one's so good.

Wilhelm (05:09.385)
He ha and he had a good line in there, which was like, like this dynamic we've seen a few times, right? Where like a new model comes out and then a few weeks later people are like, they it's been nerfed, like it's so dumb now. And what that maybe describes is that like when the new model comes out, like say when Fable came out in June, it's like obviously so much better and n noticeably better, and it feels like your new genius friend.

Matt (06:21.839)
Wasn't his wasn't his like his argument was that the model intelligence is so spiky. Maybe correct me if I'm wrong, because I it was a while ago I listened to this. like model intelligence at the moment is quite spiky, right? Like it's it's very good at like diff like random things. And so when you when you try a new model, you inevitably hit one of its spikes and you're like, holy shit, this thing is amazing. And then you've had it for a while and then you realize that that was just a spike, and then

Wilhelm (06:31.341)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (06:51.811)
Like the actual intelligence for some things is like really dumb. And so you find it's like dumb bits, and then then after after a bit more digging. So and his theory was that like maybe we never get like fully generalized intelligence, and maybe that's fine. Maybe it stays very spiky, in which case you will continue to experience spikes and then experience like lulls or like inlets or something. I don't know what we want to call the non-spiky part.

Wilhelm (07:00.299)
Right, right, right.

Wilhelm (07:18.721)
The non yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think definitely the models are are spiky and I guess that's just like an artifact of how RL works. But I feel like we're yeah, it's defin definitely sp I guess like the the point I was trying to make is that even the really high spikes, you kind of get used to them and they become the new normal. And we are we're very good at adjusting our expectations to the new normal. And then we want even more or we can even make use of of even more.

Matt (07:47.619)
Yeah, no, I agree. Right. Let's stop talking about models. models are super, super cool. And dude, actually to be fair, what let before we finish, I wanna ask you a question. What's your like go to model right now for coding?

Wilhelm (07:55.169)
Ha ha ha.

Wilhelm (08:01.375)
Opus five point five.

Matt (08:03.481)
Same bro, same. That thing is amazing.

Wilhelm (08:05.568)
It's good, yeah.

Matt (08:32.025)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (08:38.005)
Until you get to 800 or 900k tokens or something, right? So you rarely hit it. So you end up working a lot in just a single thing. and then the compaction, like I feel like I just rarely experienced compaction in Claude. so I don't have a good sense for how it works. I wanted it to be more like Codex, so I moved the autocompact thing to like 200k or 250k or 300k tokens or something like that, which is I think similar to what Codex uses.

Matt (09:34.841)
Yeah, I I haven't used I'm not using the Codex Harness that much, if I'm honest. I'm still like really on Pi. and the Pi compaction is just like extract I feel like it's just extract a bunch of the files that we've been working on and list them out and like tell the current goal and say where we are at the go in the goal. Like I think that's literally the compaction prompt. so I think it works way more like clawed code. I

Wilhelm (09:41.603)
okay.

Wilhelm (09:57.548)
Really.

Wilhelm (10:02.422)
I see, I see ya.

Matt (10:03.907)
I I don't know if codecs had that like continual compaction thing with like with like a memory, memory like a notebook memory type thing. I don't know what that was like.

Wilhelm (10:07.798)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (10:12.373)
And it's like a server side API as well, I think, that's dedicated to compaction. Like there's like a compaction API, I think, that does some special stuff.

Matt (10:18.084)
Mm.

Matt (10:23.535)
Ooh, that's that's cool. yeah, I haven't I haven't been playing with that.

Wilhelm (10:28.929)
Yeah. Which is interesting. And it's and it's annoying in

Matt (10:41.455)
Okay, so I'm I'm kind of useless. I haven't used Grockbot. I haven't used Chat GPT Dots because we can't get it in Europe. and the only one I've been using since my wonderful poke has been consumed is is Instinct. And I've been really enjoying Instinct.

Wilhelm (10:52.429)
Mm.

Wilhelm (11:03.871)
Hmm. Wait, is poke shut down? Like you can't use it anymore?

Matt (11:08.791)
I think it's still there, but it started doing really weird stuff on me. And I don't know. It feels like they they sold and then they moved on to working on other things. And the product is just like it feels quite behind. Even by the time they got bought, it felt quite behind. and now it now it just feels like quite dead. Which is sad because I love the poke team. I thought they had such good branding and like they were the whole package. but

Wilhelm (11:10.925)
Mm.

Wilhelm (11:20.193)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (11:27.391)
I see, I see, I see.

Wilhelm (11:33.355)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The whole package.

Matt (11:38.639)
I mean, I'm glad they got liquidity. It's important for the market.

Wilhelm (11:43.993)
Totally. I'm keen to hear about your instinct stuff, but before we talk about that, I feel like or maybe it's related to be honest, but the reason I asked about Grocbot is because there's like a I think an interesting new paradigm in there, which is kind of what I am would be keen for with chat as well. And I don't really understand how it works and I haven't actually tried building this. But I think the base so the basic idea, right, of like agents and even personal agents from like the Spring or Q two or whatever was

Matt (13:33.207)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (13:37.901)
And it can kind of do some sort of smart compaction to know like, you might be asking about your supplements because you started taking this other supplement recently. So it has like more context from all your previous threads. So it has like cross-thread context, even without this needing to live in like dedicated files, which is like a pattern that's always been a bit brittle. So anyway, like I guess like and but apparently Grockbot does something like this, right? That like when

Matt (13:54.105)
Mm, yeah.

Wilhelm (14:07.874)
Like you you don't just have threads, you're talking to like an expert chief of staff agent which has like a broader context on your system and there's some like cool compaction happening in the background so that like the the agent you're talking to doesn't have to like reassemble all this context fresh from your files, but it has like a starting it's like imagine starting any new thread with like an existing s like like like you know how

Matt (14:21.751)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (14:37.762)
I guess sending a a new message to an existing thread, you feel like you're talking to a smarter agent than if you're like starting a fresh prompt, a fresh thread where you need to like be more detailed in your instructions.

Matt (14:39.257)
I get it, dude. Yeah.

Matt (14:45.231)
So

Wilhelm (14:53.164)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (15:01.878)
Yep, yep.

Wilhelm (15:08.088)
Yep, right, right, right.

Matt (15:17.391)
To like worker agents. and then worker agents could trigger the outer agent as well. So like you would have like like cron agents, like automation agents, they would actually be spun up to do work and then they would insert messages into the outer agent, like and you would chat to the outer agent. And so the outer agent's compaction doesn't matter that much. It can just like trim from the top almost, because whenever it gets asked something and it doesn't know anything, it just

Wilhelm (15:53.474)
Right. Yep.

Wilhelm (15:58.115)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Wilhelm (16:03.629)
Yes.

Matt (16:13.091)
that it will keep sending messages to, keep posting messages to, even as you continue your main chat. It's kind of cool. Yeah.

Wilhelm (16:21.25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, totally. Yeah, I think d there's almost like two patterns, right? Like one pattern is that like i is this idea that you don't instruct your agent to to do the work. You instruct your agent to instruct an agent to do the work. Which is like this like chief of staff type pattern. But then this other thing, which I haven't seen like that much written about, is like this like I don't know, just like you always have like a warm session. You always have like a warm starting point that it's like more like

Matt (16:36.889)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (16:50.774)
If you asked if you spoke to like a friend or like a colleague, they know roughly what you're working on. They know the last times you've chatted to them. They have some context over like what's going on with other friends, with other parts of the business. And I want to build this into into chat, but I don't know how. And I and I think I feel like it would be more straightforward if the underlying thing in Chad was like codex based as opposed to the the Claude Agents SDK, which is like

Matt (17:23.375)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's an interesting one. Like my in like I really want to play with like the instinct to instinct. I got you there to install instinct.

Wilhelm (17:23.425)
Anyway.

Wilhelm (17:34.115)
nice. yeah, I have one as well. We can we can wait, how do I

Matt (17:37.297)
I can, I can, I can I basically so this is it. Like I had to send Instinct your phone number, but I can't attach the contact on WhatsApp. It doesn't work. So I have to like go find your phone number, copy it, and then be like, can I connect to this guy? so well. Let's.

Wilhelm (17:55.959)
I want you to chat to my friend Matt.

Matt (18:03.235)
No, Matt's instinct.

Wilhelm (18:06.326)
sorry. his instinct. We're doing it live.

Matt (18:15.075)
Yes. So I've said chat to Will's instinct. And you can see like I'm not gonna share where I'm about to move to, but I'm potentially gonna move house kind of soon. and I'm getting it to find like all the places where I could move. Will's not on instinct yet. What? Bro, do I not have your instinct number?

Wilhelm (18:35.372)
So it's actually interesting and I was a kind of s impr impressed that Instinct handled this. Like so I initially signed up to Instinct with my US number, but then on WhatsApp I have my UK number and I wanted to chat to it on WhatsApp because a WhatsApp is just so much nicer than iMessage, like my god, I don't understand why people like iMessage. Can you even search through an iMessage group chat? I couldn't figure this out the other day. It's like what is going on? Like the group chats especially are rough. Okay, what's Matt's number?

Matt (18:53.487)
Yeah.

Matt (18:58.735)
I don't know.

Wilhelm (19:05.678)
let me let me share you as a contact.

Matt (19:10.851)
No, sharing the contact doesn't work. They need to fix that. They need to fix that. Guys, instinct if you're listening, let me share a contact with my instinct. It doesn't. It says it comes through blank. It they it they don't

Wilhelm (19:14.125)
Why not?

Wilhelm (19:18.958)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (19:23.81)
Wait, is is three five one your Portuguese number?

Matt (19:27.855)
Three, five, one. Yes. Not that one.

Wilhelm (19:30.208)
Okay. Okay, not that one, alright.

Matt (19:32.879)
It's seven nine nine nine.

Wilhelm (19:35.096)
Got it, yeah, cool, cool number.

Matt (19:45.781)
dots, we need to talk about dots. I can't use dots. So I'm I'm very jealous. actually I will be able to from tomorrow. I'm gonna get San Francisco. So yeah, I could choose dots. No, so I'm using instinct, like I feel like the best use case is things where there's like automations that I want to ha happen. but I don't want to explicitly be like run this twice a day every day. So I just like instinct decide how to do the automation. But one one I'm like looking for some very specific requirements for like maybe moving.

Wilhelm (20:04.366)
Mm.

Matt (20:15.739)
a moving house and I want to find a new rental and I'm like, like I I I like I don't like massive blocks, but I want this many square meters. I want it ideally I'd like some outdoor space, but like I don't know, and I need to be less than this price. And just like like not really that's that's half my problem. and just like well what like what else? Well there's some other like really arbitrary things. no yeah more than this square meterage which like

Wilhelm (20:16.344)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (20:31.864)
Damn, big spender.

Wilhelm (20:43.117)
Yeah.

Matt (20:45.399)
If you try and look at right move listings, it's so hard to work out. You have to sometimes find the the floor plan. Sometimes they don't have a floor plan. So you have to like guesstimate from the images and like all of this sort shit. and like garden space, like trying to be like if it has some outdoor space, like a balcony or a garden, like that's also very hard to tell from from from right move. So I asked instinct all of these things. And I gave it like a general area.

Wilhelm (20:50.646)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (21:05.091)
Yeah.

Matt (21:11.477)
And the suggestions have been amazing. Wait, I can I can I can click and connect instincts. except we're connected.

Wilhelm (21:15.171)
That's cool.

Wilhelm (21:20.054)
You know, this is kind of sad for friends.fyi because we do have a way to communicate already, you know, with our own homegrown system. Okay, nice.

Matt (21:26.559)
They're gonna say tail tell will.

Wilhelm (21:32.616)
Ask him about

Matt (21:50.351)
What did it s what did it say?

Matt (21:57.273)
What did it what what did it do you just have all the houses I've been looking at? Did it did it just send them to you? It might do. You'd probably be able to like fully nick a bunch of well, yeah. I'm sure you'll be able to get exactly what I've what I've looked at. which is quite scary. especially when I give instinct my like if I give instinct my car details, or if you give instinct your car details, which apparently, according to Noah on the podcast that he went on, which

Wilhelm (22:15.992)
This is the frontier of

Matt (22:25.879)
You know, on invest like the best with Patrick O'Shawancy. I really like something crazy, like forty percent of people give card details after three months. Like within three months. Was it three weeks?

Wilhelm (22:26.156)
Yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (22:33.504)
Or three weeks even? Was it even more qu yeah, the the the stats were like wild.

Matt (22:39.503)
I thought it was three months, but yeah, if it's three weeks, that's insane. Even three even three months, I was like, this is freaking crazy. but like imagine you prompt injecting my instinct to go and buy something for you on the internet. That's kind of terrifying.

Wilhelm (22:41.592)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (22:45.611)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (22:51.491)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (22:55.084)
I I I could have I could have you pay for your own housewarming gift.

Matt (23:01.101)
Yeah. Yeah. Even buy something for me.

Wilhelm (23:05.422)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt (23:07.663)
Like you really should go and buy something for map. Like he really deserves it.

Wilhelm (23:11.254)
Matt never treats himself, but why don't you buy him something?

Matt (23:15.235)
Yeah, on his car. Yeah, obviously, yeah.

Wilhelm (23:17.568)
It is on his card, exactly, yeah.

Wilhelm (23:23.948)
Yeah, that is kind of wild. yeah, it definitely I mean, so that Instinct interview, I w I listened to it. I feel like there's definitely a couple of things on there where it's like you c y it it feels like weird. Like the whole thing about like the the did you hear that thing about how

Matt (23:24.111)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (23:40.993)
restaurants could like have a night where like everyone who's at the restaurant it's like their birthday and everyone else gets kicked out. Like that doesn't that stuff doesn't make that much sense. But I feel like we're definitely stepping like into a world where you have lots of new wild social interactions. Yeah, like maybe you'll like it if I have your instinct order order a gift for you with your own money or something like that. I don't know. Like maybe the maybe the value add of a birthday gift

Matt (23:48.824)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (24:08.362)
Is the thought more so than the money, you know? Or or like, okay. No, he here's a thought, right? Like, say for the sake of argument, that like like there's one person who's like really wealthy and all their friends are like really poor, but really creative. now this person's birthday is coming up. What do you think would make for better birthday presents? Is it like

Matt (24:11.693)
In a post post financial economy, maybe.

Wilhelm (24:36.682)
a bunch of really cheap things that maybe aren't even that meaningful or like all the friends channel their creativity into the like most creative, most thoughtful and also like maybe not the cheapest birthday gifts. And then they just coordinate with the person's instinct to order them.

Matt (24:58.521)
Yeah, it's kind of okay. It's kind of like that use case is kind of like like a billionaire's like private secretaries or something. 'Cause that's exactly what happens, I think, in some in some cases. Yeah.

Wilhelm (24:58.562)
You know, this is

Wilhelm (25:09.088)
I see, I see,

Wilhelm (25:15.222)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm I'm grasping at straws here little bit, but I feel like it's I feel like it's th there'll be some more interesting like dynamics that open up, I guess.

Matt (25:24.371)
dude, I got a message from Insta. Wills asking which flats you've been considering with links. What can I send him?

Wilhelm (25:34.59)
Okay, so it checks in with you. that's a bit of a

Matt (25:36.879)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (25:41.103)
Takes the fun out of it a bit. It's pretty cool. I'll I'll mention what what I liked about dots so far, which is I've only been playing it a around with it a little bit, and I actually I actually can't use Muse either because I think Facebook thinks that I'm in Europe. Or like there must be some setting in my Facebook account or my Instagram account where it's like a UK number or like some language is set to German or whatever.

Matt (25:41.113)
Bit bit cool, Bit cool.

Wilhelm (26:09.504)
And it's decided that I'm not in a or like it's too risky to give me access to Muse. So I'm just like, yeah, I also can't access that one. But Muse seems really cool as well. And I feel like they have a like really great team building it. But what's impressed me with dots so far is like a little bit of the proactivity. So this is another thing that I could never get this to work very well in Chad. Like when should it be proactive and like for what things and and whatever. But dots like

Matt (26:20.631)
Mm.

Wilhelm (26:38.912)
I've had a bunch of like emails back and forth with lawyers recently. And like I get a lot of emails, as I imagine you do. and but like dots was like, okay, this is clearly an important email. And like within a minute of the lawyer the lawyer email arriving, it was like, here's the latest on that, here's what we should reply with, and like had the draft ready to go. So that's really cool. So like it has some sense of like what's important to do, and then suggests interesting things.

Matt (27:01.145)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (27:07.468)
So like whenever I get notification from it, it seems kind of like worth worthwhile, which is impressive.

Matt (27:12.771)
Yeah. Well, i I felt like that with Instinct as well. So so for instance like Polk, it's sad it's sad to compare my lost baby, but Polk like would just message me a shorthand of whatever email I got. Like it literally didn't matter if that email was useful or not. It would just be like a shorthand of that email. It was really annoying. was there the what instinct seems to do is I get a bunch of emails and

Wilhelm (27:20.942)
Mm.

Matt (27:39.565)
I I can be like, keep on the lookout for emails from this person. He's founder that I invested in. Can you whatever they ask, just like forward it to me. And then they asked me a bunch of stuff. And I had like I just copied and pasted some things from a friend and popped it into Instinct and just made the intro. I was like, Instinct made the intro. just make the intro. And I did that for like four people in about

Wilhelm (28:37.292)
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Matt (28:37.379)
To happen in the future via instinct without and I can do that via like a voice memo and just explain that really easily. Or I can just be like when when they reply, if they say yes, send this. And it was just so it was just like so quick to do. I've been really, really enjoying it actually. like I mean I f valued it with my like personal agent at home as well, the same, like the automations and things. but I feel like

Wilhelm (28:49.058)
Yeah, that's cool.

Matt (29:06.393)
I feel like I it's one thing that I just can't be bothered to maintain. Like I build agents every day for work. Like I'm constantly thinking about like how to do compaction best or how to do like the memory stuff, how to like solve durability problems is like the main thing that we're doing at the moment. like all of the different wonderful will weird and wonderful ways that things can crash and oom and like go crazy. And I just I just can't be bothered to do that for like my

Wilhelm (29:09.836)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (29:23.438)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (29:28.802)
Yeah, totally.

Matt (29:34.681)
thing. I just want something that works. so yeah.

Wilhelm (29:34.691)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, a hundred percent. It there's a definitely a bit of a maintenance burden. Like I was I was like upgrading all the various tailscale n like nodes yesterday, I guess, to get them with the latest version of Tailscale. I was like, Yeah, this is taking way too long. But also I spent like all of February and March basically full time building chat, which is kind of crazy. Like but yeah, there's definitely a maintenance burden.

Matt (29:56.419)
Hmm. We need to talk about Chad, bro. Okay, right. You have a blog post out about Chad. Let's go through it. We're gonna you're gonna pitch.

Wilhelm (30:01.719)
I feel like

Wilhelm (30:05.312)
I do. Yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna pitch yeah, I well originally I was gonna write like a big blog post about Chad, but then I was like, let's just write about the thing that's like least talked about, I feel like, which is the f this whole like mobile mobile app thing. So like

Matt (31:17.059)
Yeah, I I cycle I don't cycle to the train station, but I cycle to the ferry and catch the ferry to work. Yeah.

Wilhelm (31:21.822)
Okay, yeah. no way. Interesting. yeah, that's a similar thing I guess then. I it's just like one of the modes that like Google Maps doesn't handle very well because there's no way to tell it like I am gonna go like cycle to public transport and then use that. So it struggles with like plotting out that route for you. And really the key information you need from Google Maps is like when does the train leave? When does the ferry leave?

Matt (32:39.863)
Hmm. Cool. I mean I mean it's I'm dude, it's sick. Like like it works, right? It's like all of these like fuzzy things. You're laughing at me.

Wilhelm (32:41.173)
So Yeah, I think like it's no no no I'm I so one of the problems I think with talking about personal agents is that everyone's use cases are like different and what might be important to me is not very important to you. and this one might not be important to many people. In fact it's so unimportant that even though Google Maps is like a what

Matt (33:17.785)
Mm.

Matt (33:26.556)
nine.

Wilhelm (33:26.849)
Like going to the gym? Okay.

Matt (33:29.047)
No, I I just go to the gym.

Wilhelm (33:31.797)
And what do you what how do you know what to do in the gym?

Matt (33:35.411)
I spent like I don't know, eight, nine years of my life following like pretty structured program. I can like remember stuff, but like it's seared into my memory. It will never leave. I can just do one of those like off the top of my head.

Wilhelm (33:43.019)
Okay, done.

Wilhelm (33:50.827)
That's okay, you were you were too advanced for for me. so

Matt (33:55.085)
Not really. It's probably not that helpful because like I have very different goals now to I had at twenty, but still it's

Wilhelm (34:01.611)
Yeah, interesting, interesting. No, that makes sense. I mean, so there's there's this app that I've loved using like past few years called Fitbod. And the basic idea is just like you rock up to the gym and it tells you like exactly what to do. You tell it like, okay, I have an hour, here's what I have in the gym, and then it gives you exercises to do based on like science, based on like maybe the exercises you did like last week or whatever. but the problem is like it's workout generation in there. Or like like like that app works very well, but

Matt (34:35.567)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (35:01.429)
And being like, here is like what my strength and workout goals are. And by the way, not just strength, but also like I'm doing all this triathlon stuff. So like add exercises that help build like the right strength for like running, or for cycling, or for swimming. so all of that is like adjusted. Also I have this like one injury. So like make sure I always do these like rehab exercises. so you can just have like a bit more you can personalize it more, which I think is is part of my pitch with the

Matt (35:52.271)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (36:00.194)
But I figured out that you can actually get live heart rate from AirPods. so now, because it's my own app, I can just like add that feature. And because I'm always wearing AirPods when I'm in the gym, I always have like my heart rate. And now I have like heart rate for my workouts when I didn't have it before. So it's it's a really nice, it's really nice to be empowered to actually like add the features, the things that whatever you're using doesn't have. and then last thing I'll mention on this is

Matt (38:04.535)
Nah, that's so cool, man. I I felt like this when we talked about this a bunch, right? I felt like this when I made Sherlock or Gladstone or whatever we called it in the end, the the one on my pie. Yeah, the dog, the dog, dude. I felt like that then, like my use cases, like even just like our like sleep use case where we used to send each other sleep scores, which we can't do at the moment. I don't have a garment. Well, I do, but my garment broke and then it took so long to get

Wilhelm (38:15.477)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The dog.

Matt (38:33.539)
Like the warranty replacement that's still at my parents' house and all this crazy stuff. Anyway, I felt like I felt like it were that way. Like the stuff that I I was always like telling my friends, like, I've done this thing with our with our with with the with my like family shared agent and they were like, What the hell is wrong with you? And that's like, Yeah, I just like I have like these things. Like, you tell me the things that you would do with it, you're gonna have like weird things as well that I don't do. Like all I mean, it's very personal. I think that's why the model the

Wilhelm (38:45.537)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (38:51.949)
Ha ha ha.

Wilhelm (39:00.397)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt (39:04.143)
product in the space is so tough to build. And like instinct is kind of interesting where they are they're going for this like monetization model of selling things, like the commercial thing, which I feel like it I I wonder what you think about that. Because from my perspective, maybe this is just like living in a country where people don't really buy very much. but that feels that feels weird. Maybe Americans, it's a little bit different.

Wilhelm (39:17.921)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (39:27.393)
Yeah.

Matt (39:34.489)
But yeah, I'd love to see how you think about that, how like the monetization involved and like because I always thought these like you this this this product was a very hard product to build because of that. Like zoning into like one specific use case obviously kills the vibe, like it kills people in the answer to different things. But then then you miss, yeah, like you miss stuff.

Wilhelm (39:44.215)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (39:51.531)
Mm. It's a great question.

Wilhelm (39:56.256)
It's fascinating. So so the idea I think with with this with instincts, and this is what he was talk to saying on the podcast, is that like rather than having people pay for instinct, th they already have a wild amount of transaction volume, going through instinct. The figure he said was one billion, which seems like th that must be like an annualized figure, right? Like you you

Matt (40:13.591)
It's crazy.

Matt (40:19.021)
Yeah, annualized figure of like from like twenty minutes. We got a big purchase. Let's go.

Wilhelm (40:21.869)
Yeah, from like the Exactly, yeah. let's lock into that five seconds where the big purchase hit. and then he's saying like, yeah, okay, so credit cards take, I don't know, w one, two percent, you know, Apple takes thirty percent, maybe we'll be somewhere like in the middle of like taking

Matt (40:58.276)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (41:17.469)
more information for me to ingest or like more thinking. Like I want the chat to be a thing that goes out into the world and takes action. Right. Because like that's the best way to like make progress on something or like like learn a thing or whatever, right? Like that was the the the goal. Like be an action chat, like the meme, right? Like go out and take action. and sometimes if it means like spending a hundred dollars on something means like some project meaningfully advances.

Matt (42:04.164)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (42:14.465)
From like purchasing a flight. Like a lot of people really enjoy booking flights because it feels like, I don't know, you're doing something productive and it's exciting to like book the trip. So like this idea that like your personal agent will like go and do that fun dopamine activity for you seems like kind of wild. And in fact, like there was even a thing the other day where like at this, I I when I saw this idea, I was like, damn.

Matt (42:33.507)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (42:44.479)
I can see how I would enjoy this. But there was a thing around called like shopping cart simulator or something like that. So like there's a there's a website, was this in South Korea or something like that, where like it's a like dopamine type thing where you can go and ex and fake buy like an expensive item. So you like the whole Shopify checkout flow. Like you pick a ring or whatever you want to buy, you check it out, you put in like

Matt (43:08.106)
What?

Wilhelm (43:12.087)
Fake card details, and then there's even like order tracking about like, you know, it's it'll arrive in five days or whatever. But the whole thing is fake. There's no you're not purchasing anything, there's no money being spent, and it never arrives because it's not real. The whole thing is just like entertainment of shopping with me on this. So like so maybe we're at the stage in I don't know.

Matt (43:31.713)
Yeah. Yeah. This is so weird.

Wilhelm (43:42.242)
the world where it's actually so fun to purchase something online that we've built like a fake simulator to simulate it. And that's what we actually want rather than our agents buying things for us. So I don't know, it's really interesting.

Matt (43:52.439)
It's so weird. I I always find

Wilhelm (44:15.949)
Right, right, right. Yep, yep.

Matt (44:19.587)
But like that don't make that much sense like outside of that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if this is one of those things.

Wilhelm (44:32.525)
Yeah. I mean I feel like the yeah, I I there's a lot of exciting things. I'm I'm sure something will come come out of it. I it's never like the demos we imagine at the beginning that end up being like the most interesting ones or whatever, so

Matt (44:47.727)
Yeah, you never know. You never know how it all works. Interesting in it.

Wilhelm (44:49.163)
You never know. I think certainly yeah, there's there's there's potential. I mean what what what what like things would you want your personal agent to purchase for you?

Matt (45:01.741)
What would I want my personal? I like I think things like work stuff, like if I could get some like agent to just book work flights, that's and like, because mostly my work, like when I'm booking stuff personally, I like stress out a little bit about like when I want it to be, like I would need it can't be it can't be too expensive, all of this sort of stuff. and like I tend to like not buy changeable tickets. But like

Wilhelm (45:09.92)
I see.

Matt (45:30.691)
When I book something at work, like I'm actively encouraged to buy tickets that can be moved. The price is less of an issue. And so actually just booking something in advance when there's like any some idea that I might be going is actually the best solution, right? otherwise it's yeah, like, you know, like like like it's just a better solution. But because it's me, like I'm like putting it off until I'm exactly sure when I want to get it. And that's like a bit of a failure mode.

Wilhelm (45:50.893)
Totally.

Wilhelm (45:59.05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like something where you're like less price sensitive or yeah. Yeah, I can see it more in in the work domain as well.

Matt (46:09.785)
Hmm. Yeah. Fun, fun, fun, fun. how's SF? Nice time of year. Is it sunny?

Wilhelm (46:11.232)
Interesting.

Wilhelm (46:18.259)
Yeah. It today's actually really cloudy day, but the sun slowly is coming out. yeah, in in theory this is like SF summer right now. You're you're you're coming here tomorrow, did you say?

Matt (46:33.487)
Tomorrow. Yeah, my I need to check in actually.

Wilhelm (46:36.149)
Yeah, it's the warmest day of the year tomor or sorry, warmest day of the week tomorrow.

Matt (46:41.135)
How warm? Like, am I gonna be okay in a t-shirt? Do need a jumper, like jacket?

Wilhelm (46:46.637)
it's twenty twenty-eight degrees tomorrow is the high. And then yeah, it'll be a warm evening actually tomorrow, which is extremely rare. So

Matt (46:49.801)
shit, it's it's pretty warm actually.

Matt (46:56.495)
I mean I I say I'm leaving tomorrow. I don't think I arrive. No, I do arrive tomorrow. That's it, right? Like I leave tomorrow and I arrive tomorrow, but I only I I arrive like three hours after I left. But for me it'll be like a whole day. But then on the way home I lose a day. So on the way home I leave on Saturday and arrive Sunday, which makes sense.

Wilhelm (47:18.935)
That makes sense. Yeah yeah. Yeah no I this is a great time of year to visit. My parents are coming as well. Do you wanna do you wanna come do you wanna come to the friend parent dinner that I'm organizing?

Matt (47:30.179)
I would love to, dude. I would absolutely love to. I was I was trying to work out like how we could do some stuff on like whether I should rent a bike or like yeah. What we should get up to. Yeah. I have a I have a bunch of stuff on. like I'm going, I'm doing did you sign up for the hackathon that I sent you a while ago? Yeah.

Wilhelm (47:38.861)
a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's

Wilhelm (47:49.058)
The the Alcatraz hackathon, I d I think it was already sold out when I saw it. but but also like I think that's the weekend my parents are here. So I'm not sure I can take them to the hackathon.

Matt (47:54.351)
hello.

Matt (48:00.622)
Okay.

Wilhelm (48:06.018)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (48:26.453)
Mm.

Wilhelm (48:31.071)
In London. Mm-hmm.

Matt (48:32.245)
And to finish at like eight, nine, ten. Like bankers finish like two AM regularly. But they start and they start a little bit earlier, to be fair, maybe nine thirty. But like it's very common to start that sort of time and finish that sort of time. Well, when I was in SF, like people were starting like around eight ish and they were finishing at five. Five day. Like all all the co working spaces I were in were like completely dead at five thirty. It was wild, yeah. Yeah.

Wilhelm (48:39.957)
Mm.

Wilhelm (48:54.123)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (48:58.741)
Interesting. Yeah, I feel like there's definitely a th like there's definitely a thing where a lot of like group rides will like meet at six or six thirty and then people can be in the office, yeah, by like eight thirty or something. yeah, I feel like I end up working later more than I work earlier at the moment. But I definitely think early to rise city.

Matt (49:22.671)
But you're not you're Yeah, definitely to rise. And I wondered what that was what that was due to. I there's this theory going around that like there's a lot of stuff that's like due to your time zone, which I find kinda interesting. Like in in Portugal it's definitely earlier rising as well, compared to London. And that we're on the same time zone, but we're much further west. So it's kind of interesting. Whereas in Spain, they're an hour in front, but they're like

Wilhelm (49:36.354)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (49:44.737)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Wilhelm (49:49.41)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (49:51.715)
They're they're f they're further east. So it's sorry, they're also further west, but they're in our in front. So it's like this is this is weird because the Spain is like kind of kind of out of axis and there's some theory that that's why they're east so late, but I don't know how true that is. How true that is.

Wilhelm (49:58.798)
Right.

Wilhelm (50:03.436)
Yep.

Wilhelm (50:06.911)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I d this is because, Is this true that Franco wanted to align himself with Hitler? And that's why he put Spain on a weird time zone?

Matt (50:16.943)
Have we talked about before? I I saw the same theory. I have no idea if it's true.

Wilhelm (50:19.437)
Okay, yeah. by the way, w I feel like we should recap the summer a little bit. What's been your what's been your favorite things to do in the summer? How's the summer been? The last summer.

Matt (50:23.919)
Yeah.

Matt (50:29.198)
Yeah.

Matt (50:35.321)
Yeah. it's been at the last dude, stop it. There's like the rest of your life in front of you. Don't let's make it good. Like you can't I think there's a certain amount of there's a certain amount of cool stuff that comes from like urgency of like this is my last weekend, this is my last week, like like I need to like like take take it by the I don't know, by something and like storm and just go for it. But I think it

Wilhelm (50:54.955)
Exactly.

Wilhelm (51:02.122)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (51:04.185)
It's kind of sad if you can't plan a few months in advance. I felt this with when I was Wincefinger lot, right? Like we would plan sort of three months in advance, two, three months in advance, and then you'd like do a training camp, you'd build up, and that would be like six weeks, and you'd build up to it, and then you would have a regatta and then you'd have like a week off, and then you'd build up to something over six, seven, eight weeks. So you'd have a regatta and you have like a week off.

Wilhelm (51:09.751)
Right.

Wilhelm (51:26.433)
You call it a regatta even when there's no boats involved?

Matt (51:30.009)
There are birds.

Wilhelm (51:32.311)
But you're not o on them.

Matt (51:34.883)
Well, technically it's sailing. So technically a windsuffer is a boat.

Wilhelm (51:41.303)
Damn, you you're blowing my mind here. That's yeah, fair enough. Sorry, continue.

Matt (51:43.791)
Technically.

Wilhelm (52:07.701)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt (52:14.563)
I mean, we n don't know what the future is like. What is it? Death and taxes. The only two things that are secure in life. Anyway, what were we talking about? I got completely off piece.

Wilhelm (52:19.661)
Ha ha.

Matt (52:39.861)
like highlights like worky stuff. I went to Amsterdam for MCP Dev Summit, MCP Con or whatever it's called. That was really fun seeing all the crew. didn't do a talk as well. It was my first conference in a very long time. As like, I really want to say like a tourist. I mean, maybe that's offensive, but it was that was really like nice to just go and

Wilhelm (52:47.575)
Mm. Mm.

Wilhelm (53:04.257)
Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt (53:06.563)
Kind of I kind of got all the perks of a speaker because I'm an MCP maintainer. but with like none of the stress of actually having to do talk, which was way too comfortable for me. and then I followed that up the week later having to do the keynote at Lisbon AI, so less comfortable. but like it was very agents that scale.

Wilhelm (53:10.973)
Wilhelm (53:23.361)
Hell yeah. What was the keynote about?

Wilhelm (53:28.211)
Ooh, nice.

Matt (53:29.519)
it was really fun. like big durable object keynote with loads of demos and loads of fun stuff. Demoing our new browser. Have you played with the the the kitesurf browser? Well named.

Wilhelm (53:33.249)
Yeah, nice, nice, nice.

Wilhelm (53:41.709)
this came out a while back, right? I I don't think I have played wait, is this is is this a s a slop fork? Meant non disparagingly.

Matt (53:51.841)
N no, it's like a full rewrite. Like like yeah, it's a little bit sloppy, yes, but it's not yeah, it's not

Wilhelm (53:59.32)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (54:03.659)
Right, it's it's a it's a browser inside of workers.

Matt (54:07.223)
Yeah. And they're they're adding some state at the moment. I don't know if I'm meant to tell you that, but at the moment it's like stateless. So it spins up a browser really fast and then it you can run your request and you can like do stuff, but all in the same work. And so you have like 15 minutes of runtime. Maybe more actually, but you have like some runtime that you can interact with it and then it dies. but we're trying to like work on some more state so you so you can like log into things and stay logged in and all this sort of cool stuff. But it is pretty cool. Like

Wilhelm (54:08.993)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (54:13.537)
Right.

Wilhelm (54:27.671)
Yep.

Matt (54:37.131)
Rui, who's on the who who built it, one of the people who built it, posted a tweet from it. So like you can actually do cool shit. Yeah, he got his agent to post a tweet from his account in Kitesurf, which if you ever tried to post a tweet from any browser, it's actually kind of hard. and to post a tweet from a browser that he completely made himself and runs on a platform that you can't run eval is insane.

Wilhelm (54:45.617)
cool.

Wilhelm (54:52.673)
Insign

Matt (55:06.658)
So yeah.

Wilhelm (55:06.753)
That's very impressive. Yeah. That's cool. Cloudflare is cooking, huh?

Matt (55:13.529)
Yeah, I think so. I think so.

Wilhelm (55:16.385)
So much happening. what about personal things from the summer?

Matt (55:18.221)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (55:22.095)
personal things. Did a bunch of like trips around Portugal. got Juliet like she's mega kiting now. It's so cool. Yeah. Yeah, it's really nice.

Wilhelm (55:32.417)
W when was your when was the chamini marathon? Was that

Matt (55:37.818)
that was yeah, that was a while ago now. Have we not had a thing since then?

Wilhelm (55:41.097)
No, no, we have talked about it. I'm trying to think if we've talked about it on the podcast or not. Or w I mean when was it in June or was it in July?

Matt (55:51.191)
June, end of June?

Wilhelm (55:53.024)
End of June, yeah.

Matt (55:55.215)
Hmm. Yeah.

Wilhelm (55:56.322)
been it's been it's been a big summer. one thing that like we've definitely not talked about on the pod is this because we haven't rec recorded since then is this meditation retreat I went on. I'm sure we've talked about this. How well how yeah, that was really cool, this like Jhana retreat. Just like you're in the somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Costa Rica meditating for like six hours a day. It was really fun.

Matt (56:09.226)
yeah. Yeah, we have, yeah, yeah.

Matt (56:24.323)
lovely. Yeah. I feel that was good. I want to do some some more stuff like that. I don't know. I haven't been on I haven't done a big holiday. I feel like like a big holiday went on. I went to Sri Lanka like almost a year ago. And that was that was amazing. Yeah, it was really nice. And then since we moved to Portugal, we've done less like massive holiday because like just been exploring Portugal is so much cool stuff. Like

Wilhelm (56:25.687)
Highly recommend.

Matt (56:49.507)
Go down to the south. I did a wing foiling race in the south. We just done a bunch of bike races. we've just been around and we we went we like put like a tent in the car. We bought a tent, like a random, like two person tent, and just put a tent in the car with a bunch of surfboards and went for a little trip over like we left Friday and came back Monday and it was it came back Monday. Hit left Friday, came back Sunday. And it was so fun. It was just like so like it's not far to get to the South Portugal two hours. You have all of this like

Wilhelm (56:55.221)
Mm.

Wilhelm (57:01.365)
Mm.

Matt (57:18.669)
Wonderful coastline and decent surf and yeah, it was it was really fun. I wanted a bit more of that, definitely. yeah. But that was like kind of my summer. What drinking a beer drinking a sagresh and sagresh was like the big deal. Yeah. Yes.

Wilhelm (57:20.833)
That's awesome.

Wilhelm (57:31.703)
This yes. Hell yeah. This last London and Europe trip I did, like at the end of August, man, it was just like way too nice. It was just so pleasant. Like Yeah, we we went to we went to Corgi Cafe. which had actually solid solid coffee, if I remember correctly.

Matt (57:47.459)
That's when I saw you, right? Cause I've also been to London a bunch of times, yeah. Went to the Corgi Cafe.

Wilhelm (57:59.765)
Yeah, and then we walked we walked through London. that was really fun. Yeah. it was just like it was just I I I had to tell myself like afterwards, like, damn, life here is just like so nice and so pleasant. Like I cannot come back to London for a while. It's just like it's just too it's just too nice. It's just too it it it makes you ask yourself questions that you don't want to ask. Like, why

Matt (58:27.791)
Why are you living in San Francisco, dude?

Wilhelm (58:29.292)
Why am I not living the why am I not living the easy life, you know? which I don't think is what you want. But but the yeah, I think just like London, Europe in general is just so nice in the summer. Like we went to Berlin as well, Amsterdam, my parents, and yeah, it was just like a really really great trip, but also too good. So that I call it I had a little Euro crisis afterwards, after my Euro summer.

Matt (59:06.543)
You're not allowed, are you?

Wilhelm (59:09.172)
Not yeah, I'm putting a a restriction on myself. There's a ban, exactly.

Matt (59:12.355)
ban. That's actually ridiculous. That's so funny. bro. Yeah, like I mean it's still really nice at the moment. The annoying thing about London is it just like gets dark so quickly very like early on in the year. that is my like that is my thing that I'm just like I wish I I think I really suffer from the the seasonal depression thing. I just

Wilhelm (59:20.15)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (59:27.5)
Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (59:40.148)
Mm mm.

Matt (59:41.711)
Struggle with the lack of sunlight.

Wilhelm (59:43.98)
Do you use a ten thousand lumen depression lamp?

Matt (59:48.843)
No, I don't. Should I? Maybe.

Wilhelm (59:50.999)
Yeah, you should. Definitely. Okay, here's here's my hacks for L London Winter, because I actually I always really liked London Winter and I feel like I've b I've figured out a way to get out of the seasonal depression. So here's here's my top tips. Number one, use a wake-up light alarm that like gradually makes the room bright over like half an hour. It's like 30 pounds on Amazon, so worth it. So good. that actually really good. Then

Matt (01:00:14.979)
Yeah, they actually good though.

Wilhelm (01:00:18.913)
Be vigilant with the vitamin D. You supplement vitamin D every day. I take it I th I take it every day here. I think in London especially. Like most people are vitamin D deficient. Like it's just a thing. It's just totally a thing. The UK government says you should do it. So every day you take your vitamin D. And then

Matt (01:00:53.732)
No, no.

Matt (01:01:02.723)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (01:01:06.497)
Like you're out with your friends once a week, exercising, spending time outside, and like it's something you can look forward to every week. So th those are my those are my how to beat London.

Matt (01:01:09.817)
Yeah. So good,

Matt (01:01:19.215)
Those are those are good ones. Those are good ones. I like that.

Wilhelm (01:01:28.567)
Let's go.

Matt (01:01:28.665)
Vitamin D. I have some of my fruit so I probably should take some more. Don't feel like I need to, but I probably should. I I'm so bad at like like remembering all of this stuff.

Wilhelm (01:01:35.085)
I think it'll work.

Wilhelm (01:01:40.805)
should we talk about Jev?

Matt (01:01:45.437)
yeah. Can we talk about some of the okay, before we talk about Jeb, I think Jeb is like I feel like everyone's gonna know what Jeb is already. And if they don't, they're not gonna care. Like it's like a very particular type of thing. but I'd like to talk a little bit like because I do have to go sometime soon, we've been chatting while, but I I'd like to talk a little bit about like some of the releases that I'm cut quite excited about at the moment. the

Wilhelm (01:01:57.111)
Mm.

Wilhelm (01:02:01.643)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's let's wrap it up.

Matt (01:02:12.161)
I mean, we we've got a birthday week this week at Clubfla and it it's always like really cool stuff. So I'm like kinda hyped about a few things and I'd love to share them with you.

Wilhelm (01:02:20.429)
Please.

Matt (01:02:21.623)
Yeah? Okay. So that the first one, well, since you mentioned Jev, we released a model called Clef, which is kind of cool. kind of cool. and yeah, Clef is like Jev, but it's sometimes a lot faster and it's sometimes a little bit better, sometimes a little bit worse.

Wilhelm (01:02:29.291)
Yes. Very cool.

Wilhelm (01:02:36.481)
So Clef is like Jeff.

Wilhelm (01:02:41.992)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (01:02:49.303)
it's just a little bit different and it takes images, which is kinda cool. I think that that's its main Yeah, go on, hit me.

Wilhelm (01:02:52.525)
Can I ask a question about this? So, because everyone is releasing their JEV competitor at the moment. And well, OpenAI shipped one, like I don't know, JEV came out like two, three weeks ago. Now there's like five alternatives. Is it just like really easy to build this kind of model? Like what's going on? Why have all these popped up so quickly? And why is like Cloudflow doesn't usually ship a lot like their own models, right? Like how what what's what's going on? Like is this yeah.

Matt (01:02:58.691)
Yeah.

Matt (01:03:17.177)
Models no

Matt (01:03:21.763)
I don't honestly, I'm kind of kind of tough. I I don't know if I can answer that question, I'm afraid.

Wilhelm (01:03:22.091)
Why?

Wilhelm (01:03:32.851)
I see, I see. Well that that just adds to the mystique of it all, I suppose.

Matt (01:03:37.377)
Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure I can answer that question. it's annoying, but pfft, sorry. You know, we do our best.

Wilhelm (01:03:48.585)
It's okay. Keep going with your w with with the other stuff you want to say.

Matt (01:03:53.012)
yeah, so Jev, Jev is sick. Clevit Clef is cool. It's named after a treble clef in case anyone's wondering about the name. what else? We

Wilhelm (01:04:04.48)
Wait, and and can i i w what so I haven't really used Jeff Friend. I've played around in their playground, but I haven't really done anything cool with it. like h well have you used it for anything? Like or what what have you used it for if if if you have or Clef?

Matt (01:04:20.597)
I haven't used it for really anything at the moment. There's some fun stuff. I want to use it. Okay. So a cool use case I think I have is to use it as a tool when the model can write code. So if the model writes some code and it the model writes some code being like, get all my Jira tickets over the past like six months. I have this statement that I want to answer. Which Jira tickets are important for this statement? And then it can just like

Wilhelm (01:04:40.236)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (01:04:49.143)
import classifier from whatever and that module like calls out to Jev and then basically your LLM has like a classifier inside code mode. That I think would be like really cool. And you like classify your Jira tickets as like related to this statement or like as as inside code mode. So the models writing code and inside that code execution engine you could have like a a classifier that's backed by Jev. I think that that sounds pretty cool to me.

Wilhelm (01:05:06.836)
In inside inside where?

Matt (01:05:19.136)
yeah.

Wilhelm (01:05:19.584)
Wait, and sorry, what what is it classif what is it classifying?

Matt (01:05:23.213)
Whatever you want. That's the whole point. Is it's general purpose. Whatever the model wants. The model wants to classify a bunch of stuff without it entering context and it can run it through Jeff. So it's like a like a sub agent, but super fast. Because the problem with like running sub agents in these things is now you now your execution engine is like gonna run for ages and they're not really designed for that. So yeah.

Wilhelm (01:05:25.42)
I see, I see, I see, I see.

Wilhelm (01:05:43.926)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (01:06:42.564)
Yeah.

Matt (01:06:51.181)
Yeah. I yeah, sounds good. I think people should I think people should try with try all this stuff, like and play with all this stuff, like and all of all of this stuff seems really useful, you know?

Wilhelm (01:06:56.041)
Well that

Wilhelm (01:07:08.887)
Yep. Yep.

Matt (01:07:10.425)
That's it. Like there's so many options, there's like endless ways of like composing agents and things. And having some like general purpose classifier in the middle that's very cheap will be cool as well. And I think every platform is gonna wanna provide that, like out of the box, like running next to the code. Because like we never really had like we th there's such a funny thing, like backstory with Jeb and like the classifiers and like we've had classifiers for ages, but like general purpose classifiers, like ones that can run

Wilhelm (01:07:26.581)
Right. Yep.

Matt (01:07:40.324)
that but the aren't LLMs with the end with the half last half of it chopped off. it's like been really hard. And so now we have now we have them and we should use them and all that stuff. Anyway, next thing I want to talk about is Thomas Ancorn shipped real-time issues. There was other people, but it was mostly Thomas. And basically it's like a mini

Matt (01:07:42.300)
end-- with the half, last half of it chopped off. Um,

Wilhelm (01:07:42.477)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (01:07:46.940)
it's, like, been really hard. And so now we have, now we have them, and we should use them and all that stuff. Anyway, next thing I wanna talk about, uh, is Thomas Ancorn shipped

Matt (01:07:56.580)
real-time issues. There was other people, but it was mostly Thomas. And basically, it's like a mini... I'm gonna get told off now, but it's like a mini version of Sentry inside the Cloudflare dashboard.

Wilhelm (01:08:06.717)
how fun.

Matt (01:08:08.940)
And so you can go to the Issues tab on your worker and see, and see, like, what the problems are with your worker and when they appeared, and you can send them to an

Matt (01:08:17.280)
agent, and you can automatedly send them to an agent to fix them, like a Cursor background agent and or like a, I don't know, Devon agent or a Cloud, Cloudflare code agent. You can

Wilhelm (01:08:28.373)
Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Matt (01:08:28.820)
just, like, send it, and it will work. And so that's pretty freaking cool. And that was a, that was a big ship, and that was a very quick ship. Uh, there's loads of other

Matt (01:08:38.140)
stuff. There's a whole thing about the data platform that we've added. There's a data plane API. Artifacts went into public beta, which is a big thing for me because I started, I started working

Matt (01:08:47.120)
on it. Um, so that's cool. That's like underpinning loads of stuff that I can't talk about here, but it's like you probably use all the time. It's underpinning all of that. Uh, so it's

Wilhelm (01:08:47.265)
Yeah.

Matt (01:08:57.820)
really being, like, stress tested and ran at scale. And they got the JavaScript rewrite of the Git server in there, so it was written in Zig. They did a JavaScript rewrite. It's much faster.

Wilhelm (01:09:06.557)
Yeah.

Matt (01:09:09.340)
It's much better. I'm an idiot. I should have written in JavaScript from the beginning, but it was fun. It's so cool. Um, yeah.

Wilhelm (01:09:16.429)
I mean yeah, that's that's wild. Yeah. Wow. Nice work. Nice work everyone.

Matt (01:09:23.120)
So loads of stuff happened, uh, and there's so many more. I really would read the birthday week blog post if you're interested. If you're not, don't bother. But on the birthday week, uh, website,

Matt (01:09:34.220)
if you just search Cloudflare birthday week and scroll down, there's, um, there's a, there's a, a cake with some candles. If you blow out all the candles, you get to make a wish. Uh,

Matt (01:09:44.620)
and that's also quite fun. Um, so if it gets you to the birthday week website. But yeah, some-- The Cloudflare blog is on fire at the moment. Like, there's some really cool shit happening.

Matt (01:09:54.080)
Just like we, we have this key value store that you can, um, save, uh, the... Sorry, the P99 request, I think, from this key value store is one point nine milliseconds, I think. I

Wilhelm (01:10:07.287)
Damn, that's wild.

Matt (01:10:07.860)
think it's something like... It's insane. Like, it just doesn't make any sense. That's P99. Um, you now have access to that. I think your, your maximum, like, s-size, like value that you can, uh,

Matt (01:10:20.620)
put in this key value store is absolutely tiny. It's ridiculously expensive to store anything on it. But if you need something stored,

Wilhelm (01:10:27.309)
I see.

Matt (01:10:30.240)
a very small piece of data stored, and you want it to be very, very fast on the hot path, like, there is no other product like it. And it-- that is called Quicksilver internally,

Wilhelm (01:10:33.121)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt (01:10:40.280)
and we're exposing it as KV Instant, I think, uh, which is way less sexy.

Wilhelm (01:10:44.757)
Yeah, I saw a tweet about this that was like apparently Cloudflare customers have been asking about this for ages because it's been like an internal Cloudflare thing for ages and now it's finally finally out.

Matt (01:10:53.380)
Yeah, well, it runs everything. Like, it's on the worker's hot request path. Like, I think I can say that, but I'm, I'm saying it, you know. Uh, it's, it's cool. It's really cool. Yeah.

Wilhelm (01:10:59.105)
Right.

Wilhelm (01:11:06.081)
That's awesome. Birthday week. So many Cloudflare weeks. We love it.

Matt (01:11:07.920)
Yeah. Uh...

Matt (01:11:11.980)
Yeah. There's been-- there's loads of other stuff that we released, but I, I don't know. I can't be bothered. Um, it's been too exhausting this week. Anyway, looking forward

Wilhelm (01:11:19.137)
Will you be at Cloudflare Connect in San Francisco?

Matt (01:11:21.660)
to more. I will not be at Cloudflare Connect, uh, because I can't be bothered to go to SF twice in a month. But I will be there next week.

Wilhelm (01:11:28.873)
Okay, nice. So any any folks listening who wanna see Matt while he's in San Francisco, hit us up. Hit Matt up. Hit up my you can hit up me and then I will pass it to my instinct, who will pass it to Matt's instinct, and then Matt's instinct will check in with Matt.

Matt (01:11:39.279)
Yeah, I'll be there next week.

Matt (01:11:48.020)
And in the meantime, someone on Antarctica will be able to measure how much of the ice caps we are burning.

Wilhelm (01:11:56.334)
Maybe maybe Jeff can do that. You think Jeff Jeff could do that?

Matt (01:11:58.040)
No, I'm kidding. Uh...

Matt (01:12:01.740)
Yeah, Jev, way more efficient. Jev could do the classification, whether we think it's spam or not.

Matt (01:12:07.360)
Yeah. Oh, dude, it's so cool. Like...

Wilhelm (01:12:08.375)
Jeff Antarctica.

Matt (01:12:10.600)
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, bye. I gotta go.

Wilhelm (01:12:14.303)
Any final thoughts?

Matt (01:12:16.880)
Uh,

Matt (01:12:20.820)
Pi added MCP. Sorry, had to get that out. Pi added MCP and code mode, and I feel vindicated.

Wilhelm (01:12:23.127)
Pi added MCP. Hallelujah.

Wilhelm (01:12:30.503)
Mm, MCP is back. You heard it here first, folks. I think like we talked about you talked about MCP's revival and stateless MCP and all this stuff in the spring, I wanna say. So

Matt (01:12:31.480)
It's amazing.

Matt (01:12:42.120)
Dude, in like, uh, yeah, May time, and now it's happened. We got V2 in properly, and it's back. We're-- It's killing it. Everything is gonna be so well connected. Actually, if you watched the

Wilhelm (01:12:45.622)
Exactly.

Matt (01:12:56.260)
OpenAI Dev Day, uh, which you didn't, I don't think, but if you did watch it, basically everything under the hood there is MCP and a product that I c-- I'm not gonna name, but

Wilhelm (01:13:03.533)
Mmm. yeah. The like plugin extension stuff there sounds incredible. And sounds like OpenAI is really prioritizing this. I think, like, yeah, if if if you want to build something, I mean this is because I built SimplePole when the Slack platform launched, right? I feel like OpenAI is now relaunching their own platform like properly with all the stuff in the right place. I think it's like a really good time to explore that and build on top of that. Cool.

Matt (01:13:05.420)
also very exciting to me.

Matt (01:13:10.820)
Everything is MCP.

Matt (01:13:13.240)
Yeah.

Matt (01:13:25.580)
Yeah.

Matt (01:13:29.420)
They're trying to be, they're trying to be this, like, OS of, OS of the next generation of the internet. Like, you turn on your computer, and you go to OpenAI or ChatGPT or whatever,

Wilhelm (01:13:37.175)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (01:13:43.180)
and then everything else you do in there. And for better or for worse, like, they're freaking doing it. Yeah. It's cool.

Wilhelm (01:13:43.426)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (01:13:48.301)
They're doing it. Yep. No.

Matt (01:13:53.240)
All right. Catch you in a bit. Life's a dream, and I'll see you in SF on, on tom-- kind of tomorrow. Bye.

Wilhelm (01:14:11.768)
And goodbye.